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Matthew Bowman

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Discussion starter · #1 ·
Looking for a little advice from those of you that have a backround in bodywork & painting. Getting ready to paint another truck and I have a question on the paint quality. The last time I did this, I spent $600 on paint, (well not just paint, for paint, hardner, thinner, & primer, hardner & thinner). I used a single stage acrylic/polyurethane. I've been looking around and I can get a much cheaper single stage acrlic/polyurethane but, will I get what I pay for? Is there a major difference in different brands? If so, what is the difference? With the abuse these trucks take, this most likely won't be the last paint job this truck gets. I don't mind spending $600 for paint, but if it's overkill and the $300 paint is all I need than I'll go that route. Thanks for the help.

Matt
 
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#2 ·
MATT>>>>>>When me and my bud did a couple of "mop n glow" jobs
we used a single stage alkyd enamel made by Limco. It cost $65
bucks a gallon. We thinned it with plain ol' laquer thinner and just
laid it on.....................

Came out smooth and shiny..............
We used 2 gallons of shiny icebox white on my old Caddy limo !!!!
1 gallon of plain old red on a GM pickup............

Much cheaper than that $pendy base/clear coat stuff not to mention
special thinners and hardner...............geo
 
#3 ·
I've become accustomed to using PPG products, I consistently get good results with them. My buddy has used off brands but they just don't seem to lay as smooth and be as consistent as brand name stuff. For work vehicles it might not matter if you're not so concerned about the finish. He paints his trucks every 4 or 5 years, the off brand seems to last about as well as anything else, they just aren't as shiny and smooth.
 
#4 ·
Matt

You probley answered your own question if your gonna use them for work and there gonna get sratched then single stage is fine.

The diff in paint is WIDE i use to use all PPG but two years ago switched to all Dupont Chroma 2 stage the quailty of paint is big both Dupont and PPG make economy paint Dupont is Nason and PPG is Ommni i dont like either one has color match is horr when doing late model cars the economy paint usally only have 1-3 var which makes it hard to get good match, Both companys have a machine and i also own one called prospect which you lay it down on a flat panel on the car and it takes a picture and brings up the paint fomula i have found that even prosect is off on high pearl paints.

When doing resto work i usally use Duponts Hot Hues paint or House of colors.

The advantage of using two stage economy for you is that when clear coated often its far easyer to repair minor repair work has again both companys now have blender.

Paint is expensive dont be fooled the modern day cars are running so much pigment and pearl that a pint or even 8oz's can cost has much has 70 bucks just for the base coat. Its hard to make customers understand this. When i restored the 60 i used hot hues red it was 600 a gal red is a high dollar paint do to the pigments.

Honestly if you want to go real low buck buy a ag color such has IH Red in the gallon in single stage for around 100 bucks a gallon holds up ok and your not spraying twice.

I have painted for 26yrs and iam fussy about my materials and some of the paint i have layed down becomes a form of Art work there are a couple show winners i posted pics of here that i painted Irodesent colors and they were my master peices, But like you i have shot some of my older trucks with economy paint and they still look good 5-6 yrs later.

Didnt mean to ramble but thought i would share with you the diff in paint.
 
#5 ·
More paint school

For equipment, work trucks etc. I have often used factory pack acrylic enamels (factory pack meaning stock colors) from various paint jobbers with satisfactory results in areas of gloss and color holdout when used with a catalyst or hardner like Wetlook or similar. Also don't thin with lacquer thinner, use enamel reducer. The hardner also gives you better repairability down the road in future paint work.

I have also found that in the cheaper paint lines (Nason, Omni, etc) the color does not have as much pigment it seems, causing need for additional coats to achieve coverage (when using bc/cc).

For undercoats, my favorite build primer has been K36 from PPG, used unreduced , with hardner. K36 can also be used with diff hardner and reduced down, as a sealer.

For bare surfaces, DP products are great, or look for epoxy primer or etching primer. Both epoxy and etching primers are available from several companies at reduced prices comp to PPG/Dupont.

Like Fred said for custom, House of Kolor has always had some great products.

Matt, you didn't mention what type of gun you are using. I recommend HVLP for improved material transfer efficiency, but if using cc, use a 'compliant' gun which seems to lay it on and flow a bit better than HVLP in my experience.

good luck.
 
#6 ·
John

Sounds like you do some painting :wink . Matt i forgot to mention MartianSenoir they are Napas paint they have good single stage AG colors for a reasonable price. My Napa parts store here got out of the paint buss its very costly to own a mix station i only deal with one parts store for my paint and only one guy mixes for me Dale at Auto value there my Dupont suppler and right arcoss the street from the shop.

Dont know if they have R&M products out your way my Dad and i both use to use there products but noone around here has that line anymore.

I agree with John on using a HVLP i havent even sprayed primer with a Gravity in years all Hvlp's my preferance for Guns is a bit diff than most Devilbiss are my two Color guns both were real pricy but are what i expect out of my guns i also have a couple of Snap on Sabers which Spray well too.

Buying HVlps from big box stores is a crap shoot most end up being spitters which means no matter were the material flow is adjusted to they spit paint. Butch my one Body guy who is 10 yrs my senior worked for my dad and is big into buying crap guns has long has he doesnt spray my customers cars with them iam ok with it LOL. True story here though three years ago at a swap meet i bought a mini touch up hvlp with stainless cup for 30 bucks that little bugger sprayed like no mini i had ever owned next year i went back up to same show and bout two more both were junk leaked spit you name it so you have to be careful on guns .
 
#7 ·
Resto's

Matt and Johnny

Here are the last three complete Resto's i did before getting sick most know the story of the Z-28 it belongs to a F-16 Fighter piolt it is Duponts Hot Hues version of Corvette Yellow, next is Firebird which has House of Kolors Irodesent paint that car belongs to a Doctor here in Midland, and last is a Mustang the car is from north of here that is also Hot Hues Amber Fire .


The Firebird and Mustang both made me proud last year winning awards at the big car show in St Ingnace last year.
 

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#8 ·
Nice pics Fred.

I forgot about MartinSenor Paint from Napa. I used to use a lot of Sherwin Williams (earlier Acme), which also produces the MartinSenor line for Napa. Then the shop I always mixed at went out, and have gone to mostly Dupont for colors. Clears I still use a variety, depending on caliber of job. For a cheap overall clear on older vehicle, I have used BFG Transtar, also have used quite a bit of Tools USA house brand of clear. Gallon of clear and quart of hardner from them has been about $60.00, mixed 4:1, though tends to be a little on the slim side for solids content. I think this is part of the flow problem (tends to be orange peel) I have encountered with HVLP guns. If I try to pour it to flow out, it runs:(
 
Discussion starter · #9 ·
Thanks for the help and info guys. I feel better about saving some $$ on paint now. You are exactly right about these being work trucks, so no since in going too crazy with the paint jobs. That will just lead to heartbrake down the road when stuff gets torn up. I like to keep everything looking good, but they are rarely seen in public all cleaned up. (we try, but you all know how that goes) To be perfectly honest, if I was looking for a perfect/high quality paint job I would send it out to the pro's. Each time I paint one it looks better than the last, but far from perfect. My paint jobs always look real good to the "untrained eye", but a painter can pick out the flaws real quick.

I use a Sharpe HVLP and I think its time for a new one. It was acting up the last fall when we last used it.

Fred, you should be real proud of those projects in the pics, they are works or art for sure. How many hours did you have on the paint alone on one of those?
 
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#10 ·
Question for Fred and Johnny, when you say single stage, do you mean enamel? Just curious, and am going to make this thread a sticky, and put it in the Projects Forum. I have not been around paint in a long time, but way back, Chroma base just came on the scene, and for trucks one of my friends with a fleet used to shoot everything with enamel from the Mack dealer. He said it held up the best for the money on the work trucks. Now if I recall correctly, epoxy enamel, and urethane are the way to go for work trucks, no?

This is a great thread that I think will help a lot of people down the road. Thanks for the valuable info guys!

~Chuck
 
#11 ·
Well Chuck, enamel as single stage? Yes.... and not necessarily.

Yes, acrylic enamel is most often done as a single stage paint as the color coat, with no further clear coat to be applied.

But in discussion of current paint technology, there are also urethane and polyurethane single stage paint systems that have improved gloss, color holdout, etc. compared to traditional enamels, whether acrylic or alkyd. Usually only solid colors, no metallic/pearls/candys,etc.

The candy/pearl colors often require what is called a tri-coat, which is basecoat for color, then pearl coat to give desired pearl effect, then the clear coat for gloss, additional depth, and durability.

Epoxy is usually durable, but doesnt hold gloss real well.

Urethane is better gloss/hardness/durability, but more money than acrylic enamel.

For equipment/work trucks, if not real new, I would choose a non metallic color as company color and do overalls in acrylic enamel with hardner. Should have decent gloss for 5 yrs or so at least, depending on care and conditions. For nicer/upscale operation, urethane would be a good way to go, IMO.
 
#12 ·
Chuck

Johnny covered it pretty well :wink . Couple things has far has late model colors most do not have a option for Single stage will use your GC for example that would require the use of two stage BC/CC this is were i am picky if i needed to repair the fender on the GC i would only use Chroma or in a pinch PPG although has mentioned Chroma is a better match mix in most cases wether using Prospect or paint formula. This also brings up Blender has it has become the way in the past if i had fixed the front fender say a softball size spot i would have had to reclear the whole fender now with Chroma blender i can blend the clear-- "Blender burns the old clear into the new".
Most insurance companys are not paying us for reclearing whole panels anymore you either jump on the bus or eat the materials for reclearing the whole panel.

Tri Color is kinda its own animal , much like Irodesents like Johnny said its a three part process and sucks on a everyday driver repair to match this is were you need to know and get along with your mixer and supppler.

Myself i would probley never spray single stage again if i was saving money i would buy a encomey brand base coat clear coat. The reason i like two stage is it allows me to color sand inbetween coats to build up the paint without it looking droopy again this must be done on transparent or high peral colors the other advantage is i spray three to 4 coats of clear it allows me to go in and 1500 wet sand and buff to a shine i like.

Matt on the Resto's each car was diff has far has time goes the Z28 was a pretty simple color however i taped and sprayed the strips has well probley close to 20 hours in the booth that is not counting body work , the Firebird was close to 60 with Irodesent , and the stang was close to the Z in booth time. Understand when i do a complete i probley spend 8 hours in the booth for a decent job but a show car iam my own worst critic.

The 60 F250 i did i will never push a resto that hard again from start to finsih i took 4 months that was two summers ago and i can make my self hurt just thinking about the hours , that was alot of metal work in that. it has by far the deepest Red Hot Hues produces and i layed many coats colorsanding in between.

Pic one cutting in Jambs, pic two color sanding, three done lol
 

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#14 ·
Stick with a system

For over 20 years of professional automotive painting I have found with getting paint to last is based upon sticking with a single brand system for all your refinish materials.

If you want to stay with a single stage and want economy I'd recommend The Nason 2K urethane system, use Nason self etch primer over any bare metal. Nason 2k Urethane primer filler over body repair areas and if your concerned with maximum coverage use Dupont Croma premier Sealer with the correct value shade prior to top coating.

Nason 2K urethane factory packs are pretty consistant with future color matches, its also less than $200 for the Gallon of paint, activator and reducer kit. The Nason primers are also reasonable as compared to those used in the Chroma One, Chroma Base or Chroma Premier lines.

Dupont Certified refinisher & ASE Master Certified Collision Tech
 
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#15 ·
Jay

I agree on brands there was a time when all i had in the paint room was PPG have been with Dupont for three years now, i dont use alot of Nason more Chroma than anything. But just like Ommni Nason provides a affordable option.

I myself doubt after what i just went threw i will spray much anymore when i get some time i will PM you a report from a Doctor in Ann Arbor on his personal study of paint and paint chems linked to diff forms of blood born cancers.

Suits and self contained resporators are in place but even with them i feel its not good enough protection.
 
#18 ·
For what it's worth, here's yet another opinion.

For work vehicles I use DuPont "Fulthane" (their lower priced two-part urethane) with DuPont two-part epoxy primer. The epoxy primer sticks very well to bare steel and the Fulthane is easy for me as an amateur to spray and sticks very well to the primer and seems to hold up well. I've never messed with clear coats mainly because they've faded and flaked off of every clear coated vehicle I've ever owned. I might use a clear coat if I was doing a custom show vehicle but I don't have any of those.

I also use a "Hobby Air" forced air respirator and I think it was a good investment.
 
#19 ·
Langanobob said:
For what it's worth, here's yet another opinion.

For work vehicles I use DuPont "Fulthane" (their lower priced two-part urethane) with DuPont two-part epoxy primer. The epoxy primer sticks very well to bare steel and the Fulthane is easy for me as an amateur to spray and sticks very well to the primer and seems to hold up well. I've never messed with clear coats mainly because they've faded and flaked off of every clear coated vehicle I've ever owned. I might use a clear coat if I was doing a custom show vehicle but I don't have any of those.

I also use a "Hobby Air" forced air respirator and I think it was a good investment.
Click to expand...
Just a FYI on clear coat i have never seen clear fade dull maybe because it wasnt applied correctly which really its cloudy not dull, and for it flaking off again it can be blamed on poor base coat work.

Nothing wrong with single stage paint dont get me wrong it has its applications but not suitable for late model due to blending and color match.
Another thing a respirator is a must have your right had i payed more attention to using a good set up over the last 27 yrs i could poss not being fighting cancer.
 
#20 ·
I've never painted anything newer with clear coats, But I do a lotta painting on older equipment, and antique equipment. Mostly outside the shop on nice calm overcast days, because I dont have a official spray booth ( yet ). But I also am learning how Important your resporator equipment is. Before when I was younger I never gave much thought to it, now I'm kinda scared of the consiquenes that I may pay for being so stupid.
I generally use a accrylic thinned just a little bit, get it from the local Farm/Fleet because they have all the same color matches for most of the equipment. Anything that goes out into the field gets beat up, and needs a dressing or touch up every 3 to 5 years any how. Seems to work for me but I dont touch newer stuff.
I sure have been learning a lot on this sight, Its a really nice thing to here other poeples imput on all of these topics, this one if read 15 years ago would have saved me From being to dum when I was younger.
Anyhow A big thanks to all that have contributed to this fine site.:)
 
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Brent Offerman
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