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Discussion Starter #101
Agreed. But unlike Elizabeth Warren who feels that the lenders are to blame, I blame the colleges that charge $60,000 per year for a mediocre school while professors like Elizabeth Warren collect $400,000 salaries. At least in my day, my poorly chosen college education was in the low 4 digits per year.



Spending will return will people go back to the same activities they did before they were forced to stop.




I won't say that no one lives on low wages - my problem is with the premise that the average person can't survive without incurring massive debt on an average salary. And that average person is a hard working, studious individual who just can't earn a decent living because of those evil CEOs. We have a set of friends who make decent money yet were nearly into foreclosure thanks to poor money management and we had to loan them money to bail them out (yet to be repaid.) But these same friends are also the ones who feel the need to spend 3 times what we do every time we eat out. If you can't pay your mortgage, don't order 3 $9 drinks to go with your $38 steak. Yes, I am well aware that is purely anecdotal.



From the first hit in a Google search
"The percentage of hourly paid workers earning the prevailing federal minimum wage or less declined from 2.7 percent in 2016 to 2.3 percent in 2017. "

For all the talk of the minimum wage being pathetically low (and, I'll grant the Federal is) the fact is that few people actually make that. And the percentage of those who are full time working adults is presumably even lower.




I know - I was just being funny




I'll save my Google Earth search for them till later. I'm bizzie.



I'm aware that the cost of living in some areas is exorbitant - I am not fully opposed to subsidies to some people in some areas. But if you can afford a pack of cigarettes a day at $10 per pack, you can throw $10 a week into a savings account.





How can you argue for massive government spending to the tune of $35 trillion and not expect massive taxes to follow at some point?




Disagree. That is like saying that stomach cancer and indigestion should both be treated the same because they cause the same symptoms. If the cause is completely different, then logically the solution should be as well.
I need time to respond.
 

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Discussion Starter #103
Agreed. But unlike Elizabeth Warren who feels that the lenders are to blame, I blame the colleges that charge $60,000 per year for a mediocre school while professors like Elizabeth Warren collect $400,000 salaries. At least in my day, my poorly chosen college education was in the low 4 digits per year.
I think you missed my bigger picture point here with what I was going after in that Consumption is critical to the sustainability of the economy. In fact in a market-driven economy where growth is critical to maintaining the success of individual companies and the economy as a whole itself-- drives people into a position where you savings are scorned and spending is promoted at all costs. Now, if you really want to make this system grow while keeping the largest segment of the pie for yourself the answer is to create a system where you pay your employees the least possible while offering them most credit possible. You want everything leveraged with credit because that way a $200.00 TV becomes a $250-$350.00 dollar tv depending on the purchasers credit and ability to pay off. That what was actually what I was going after. And yes, the lenders are huge part of this scam. They are purposely using extra fees, higher interest rates, and absurdly high late payments to create a system where they squeeze out vastly more sums of money from the consumer. It is absurd to have a $100.00 or $200.00 per year user fee on a credit card--just for owning it. The same way it is crazy to give a person making $12.50 per hour a $2,500.00 or $3,600.00 credit limit. You cannot and will not ever pay off those sums.

You're issues with Elizabeth Warren aside she is absolutely correct Credit Card Companies and thanks to Joe Biden they have more power to maintain their grasp over your funds-- since you cannot discharge their debit as easily during a bankruptcy.

As for colleges themselves being over priced-- sure they are but that isn't because professors are making $400,000.00 from the University. Usually, the University pays their average tenured professor about $90-150,000.00 per year. The rest of their money comes from public speaking events, book deals, government research grants that pay part of their salaries for research, and my favorite corporate boards! The days of the humble academic are long since gone. These guys are cashing with book tours, public speaking engagements, and corporate board placements or corporations they create. Nothing says CAPITALISM LIKE THE NOBEL GOAL OF THE PAID SPEAKING FEE! Why do you think professors right so many public consumption pseudo-academic books about their field of study? Because it is how you create money! It is how get kids to come to your university and it the royalties alone are worth it! Remember before I took over the family business and left academia I was on track to for this rosy future of Ted Talks and Ponderous Dinners with other Public Intellectuals. To be honest it was rather Hollow....



Cwren2472 said:
Spending will return will people go back to the same activities they did before they were forced to stop.
This is a lovely dream-- but, it 40% of the 30,000,000 million small businesses go belly up for good-- spending will look a lot different. Small companies will not be able to fight with the monopoly power of Multinational Companies. That is just the case. And with up to 25%-40% percent unemployed and underemployed will be shopping frugally to say the least. Not to mention where and how those dollars are spent back into the economy will be different too. Local Businesses directly spend more of their funds in their communities. Where as large scale multinational corporations do not do this. Also the differences between pay scales for employees is dramatic often. Yes, larger companies usually have benefits and other perks but actual take home dollars are less. These differences make a huge difference in the communities that dominated by small locals vs. that of larger multinational companies.




Cwren2472 said:
I won't say that no one lives on low wages - my problem is with the premise that the average person can't survive without incurring massive debt on an average salary. And that average person is a hard working, studious individual who just can't earn a decent living because of those evil CEOs. We have a set of friends who make decent money yet were nearly into foreclosure thanks to poor money management and we had to loan them money to bail them out (yet to be repaid.) But these same friends are also the ones who feel the need to spend 3 times what we do every time we eat out. If you can't pay your mortgage, don't order 3 $9 drinks to go with your $38 steak. Yes, I am well aware that is purely anecdotal.
CEO's are making 900 times more than lowest paid employees in their corporation. Does a guy like Jeff Bezos do 900 times the work then his lowest paid employee? Does Jeff have all the ideas that make Amazon run? Did he write every line of code to create the Alexa? No. The fact is CEO's are parasite on the corporation sucking the lift blood of the company way (money) to store in their own bank accounts. I'm sorry but you will never make me believe that I do 900 times more work then my coworkers. I know it is a group activity and we all need to be paid an equitable sum and perform our best.

I have a better plan then subsides. We will probably need subsides to make any great transformation in our economy to a more sustainable one with greater equality. However, for the most part we need a public-private jobs guarantee. Yes, JOBS with higher pay and better benefits are the key to sustainable economic development in our society and the world for the most part. So, yes, we will need a subsidizes to support the transformation but this isn't going to be a substitute for jobs but a transition devise so that we can maintain consumption and transfer people to new sectors of the economy.





Cwren2472 said:
From the first hit in a Google search
"The percentage of hourly paid workers earning the prevailing federal minimum wage or less declined from 2.7 percent in 2016 to 2.3 percent in 2017. "

For all the talk of the minimum wage being pathetically low (and, I'll grant the Federal is) the fact is that few people actually make that. And the percentage of those who are full time working adults is presumably even lower.
I think this is just a misunderstanding of my point. I wasn't saying that all minimum wage earners earned the federal minimum wage. At least 5 states still have no minimum wage and therefore are pegged at the Federal Minimum and another 8-9 I believe have a state minimum that is the same as the federal minimum. And no state has a minimum wage that can actually support a single person living on his or her own with just one job.

My point simply was that if adjusted for inflation and productivity Federal Minimum wage should be closer to $25.25 per hour then $15.00. That is my big point that until we actually make the minimum wage this high and subsidize the small and medium businesses to reach these we are never going to have an economy that is equitable.



cwren2472 said:
I know - I was just being funny
Just making sure.




cwren2472 said:
I'll save my Google Earth search for them till later. I'm bizzie.
Soon, I might charge admission...



cwren2472 said:
I'm aware that the cost of living in some areas is exorbitant - I am not fully opposed to subsidies to some people in some areas. But if you can afford a pack of cigarettes a day at $10 per pack, you can throw $10 a week into a savings account.
People have to have some little luxuries... Nothing makes people more unhappy then when you take way their little luxuries... This is why the Right Wingers are really so easily agitated because people are pushing the idea that this is a conspiracy couple this with the weak response by the government to support the country-- and poof... You're screwed. But getting back to me original point $10 for smokes and $13.50 for your soda might be the only two luxuries you get have on a $13.50 per hour job. Take that away and you're life is truly miserable.








cwren2472 said:
How can you argue for massive government spending to the tune of $35 trillion and not expect massive taxes to follow at some point?
Taxes only remove money to decrease inflation. If the economy still grows at a pace greater than inflation we don't need to worry about taxes. If we need to increase taxes we can do it. We can create all kinds of automatic stabilizers in the economy to offset these problems we now pretend are unthinkably complex.



cwren2472 said:
Disagree. That is like saying that stomach cancer and indigestion should both be treated the same because they cause the same symptoms. If the cause is completely different, then logically the solution should be as well.
It's more like a broken leg or arm...
 

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the least possible while offering them most credit possible. You want everything leveraged with credit because that way a $200.00 TV becomes a $250-$350.00 dollar tv depending on the purchasers credit and ability to pay off
Right, cuz there is no alternative to paying $350 for a $200 TV - oh, wait, people could actually save $200 first and buy the TV. No one is forcing people to use a credit card with 28% interest nor forcing them to make minimum payments. People apply for credit, get it with terms clearly spelled out, max it out, and then blame the credit card company for "taking advantage of them." Does no one believe in personal responsibility?

That what was actually what I was going after. And yes, the lenders are huge part of this scam. They are purposely using extra fees, higher interest rates, and absurdly high late payments to create a system where they squeeze out vastly more sums of money from the consumer. It is absurd to have a $100.00 or $200.00 per year user fee on a credit card--just for owning it. The same way it is crazy to give a person making $12.50 per hour a $2,500.00 or $3,600.00 credit limit. You cannot and will not ever pay off those sums.
See rant above and cut-and-paste

You're issues with Elizabeth Warren aside she is absolutely correct Credit Card Companies and thanks to Joe Biden they have more power to maintain their grasp over your funds-- since you cannot discharge their debit as easily during a bankruptcy.
Nor should they be able to. If students could discharge an unsecured loan of $300,000 by signing bankruptcy documents, college loans as we know them would never be granted again. Then again, if that was the case, maybe colleges wouldnt be able to charge $60k a year. Perhaps I'll have to rethink that...





My point simply was that if adjusted for inflation and productivity Federal Minimum wage should be closer to $25.25 per hour then $15.00.
That would result in a noticeable salary bump for me and i assure you I live just fine already. The idea that $25/he is needed for a minimum lifestyle is absurd. Not to mention that it would result in massive, massive layoffs of jobs that couldnt be justified at that dollar amount. If you think that every cashier at the mall both deserves $25/hr and that every company could afford that you are even more left wing than I thought.



Soon, I might charge admission...
I doubt it would qualify for an essential business exemption

Taxes only remove money to decrease inflation. If the economy still grows at a pace greater than inflation we don't need to worry about taxes. If we need to increase taxes we can do it. We can create all kinds of automatic stabilizers in the economy to offset these problems we now pretend are unthinkably complex.
I read all that as "we'll worry about it later" - which is 100% my problem with it
 

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I guess the Walter Virtual Tour will be behind a pay wall.
Be sure to film it in 4k for maximum effect. And perhaps you can FedEx a piece of rusty steel to each viewer to fondle for the tactile sensation while participating. Be sure to warn about the need for up to date tetanus shots.
 

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Discussion Starter #107
Be sure to film it in 4k for maximum effect. And perhaps you can FedEx a piece of rusty steel to each viewer to fondle for the tactile sensation while participating. Be sure to warn about the need for up to date tetanus shots.
some are rustier than others... Most aren’t as rusty as Fritz...

but here is a good read about why Deficits really don’t matter.
 

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some are rustier than others... Most aren’t as rusty as Fritz...

but here is a good read about why Deficits really don’t matter.
Just for giggles, I googled the author.
"She also served as an advisor to Bernie Sanders' 2016 presidential campaign."

Yeah, I'll take a hard pass.
 

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Discussion Starter #109
Just for giggles, I googled the author.
"She also served as an advisor to Bernie Sanders' 2016 presidential campaign."

Yeah, I'll take a hard pass.
She is also a smart economist. But if that is your reasoning then read this one:

L. Randall Wray is to my knowledge not linked to Bernie in any way. He and Stephanie Kelton both worked on the MMT fundamentals in the late 90’s and early ‘00’s at the University Missouri Kansas City.

it’s a harder book because it is written for economic students where as the deficit myth is more general audience focused.
 

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She is also a smart economist. But if that is your reasoning then read this one:

L. Randall Wray is to my knowledge not linked to Bernie in any way. He and Stephanie Kelton both worked on the MMT fundamentals in the late 90’s and early ‘00’s at the University Missouri Kansas City.

it’s a harder book because it is written for economic students where as the deficit myth is more general audience focused.
I cant afford to spring for that book on my sub-$25-minimum-wage salary so I just googled the Cliff's Notes version of "MMT"

1) the government can never go "broke" because they can always print more money
2) the government should spend-spend-spend until unemployment reaches 0
3) the worst that can happen is massive, unchecked inflation leading to catastrophic economic collapse. But that probably won't happen

I assume I'd have to pay for the book to find out why they believe that wont happen
 

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Discussion Starter #111
I cant afford to spring for that book on my sub-$25-minimum-wage salary so I just googled the Cliff's Notes version of "MMT"

1) the government can never go "broke" because they can always print more money
2) the government should spend-spend-spend until unemployment reaches 0
3) the worst that can happen is massive, unchecked inflation leading to catastrophic economic collapse. But that probably won't happen

I assume I'd have to pay for the book to find out why they believe that wont happen
1) it says that any fiat currency is the sole controller of its currency and the only supplier
2) government spending will not crowd out private sector spending
3) 100% employment is not only achievable but desirable
4) inflation isn’t going to spiral out of control as long as spending matches material goods
5) taxes, bonds, interest rate and growth control inflation automatically

 

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Discussion Starter #112
Right, cuz there is no alternative to paying $350 for a $200 TV - oh, wait, people could actually save $200 first and buy the TV. No one is forcing people to use a credit card with 28% interest nor forcing them to make minimum payments. People apply for credit, get it with terms clearly spelled out, max it out, and then blame the credit card company for "taking advantage of them." Does no one believe in personal responsibility?
Remember, 60% of Americans cannot handle $1000.00 emergency. Because our average personal paychecks cannot afford to support the lifestyles we all consider to be basic lifestyle requirements. Real wages have steadily fallen hard since 1968 when minimum wage peaked. But inflation isn‘t the only problem we have. We have also an issue with productivity people are producing more and more and more while literally getting paid lower wages.


cwren2472 said:
That would result in a noticeable salary bump for me and i assure you I live just fine already. The idea that $25/he is needed for a minimum lifestyle is absurd. Not to mention that it would result in massive, massive layoffs of jobs that couldnt be justified at that dollar amount. If you think that every cashier at the mall both deserves $25/hr and that every company could afford that you are even more left wing than I thought.
Actually, the absurd part is that people have internalized the fact we as a society feel it is okay to exploit Employees.... that’s my problem. And yes $25+ per hour can be made to work universally.
 

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So you bump up the minimum wage to $25 an hour , I pass on my new cost of doing business to my customer and your cheeseburger at McDonald’s now cost 15 bucks.

The person getting the raise is no better off because inflation put them right back into the same place they were before .

The person needs to better themselves, be a hard worker and earn more money. We should Not raise the minimum wage just because.

The great thing about all economical theories they’re just theories.


I guess if you feel exploited at your job you are free to quit that job and go get another one .

Not every job is a high paying job nor should it be .
 

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Discussion Starter #114
So you bump up the minimum wage to $25 an hour , I pass on my new cost of doing business to my customer and your cheeseburger at McDonald’s now cost 15 bucks.

The person getting the raise is no better off because inflation put them right back into the same place they were before .

The person needs to better themselves, be a hard worker and earn more money. We should Not raise the minimum wage just because.

The great thing about all economical theories they’re just theories.


I guess if you feel exploited at your job you are free to quit that job and go get another one .

Not every job is a high paying job nor should it be .
Actually, we can increase wages without an increase of costs that is terrible. MacDonald’s makes $9.5 billion dollars in 2018. Now, if they only made $2.0 billion in profits almost zero change in prices.

I see you won the feud with Fred over at PS too... that means you only have to watch out with your bickering with Masssnowfighter now. Keep it civil or you will be banished here the land of the misfit plow People.
 

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Actually, the absurd part is that people have internalized the fact we as a society feel it is okay to exploit Employees.... that’s my problem. And yes $25+ per hour can be made to work universally.
In my case, for the hours I work, that would equate to over $1500 per week, plus 401k match, plus health insurance, plus payroll taxes, plus sick time, plus vacation time. Even you can't think that every employer can afford that for every employee doing every job. You also can't think your example of Jeff Bezos' net worth is representative of the average employer. Though, incidentally, your example of his salary being 900 times the average is inaccurate. He only takes a salary of $80k

Amazon CEO Jeff Bezos has made the same salary for decades, a little more than double the median U.S. employee's pay

His extravagant wealth is tied to his ownership of the company, not to a salary that the company pays him.
 

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Discussion Starter #118
In my case, for the hours I work, that would equate to over $1500 per week, plus 401k match, plus health insurance, plus payroll taxes, plus sick time, plus vacation time. Even you can't think that every employer can afford that for every employee doing every job. You also can't think your example of Jeff Bezos' net worth is representative of the average employer. Though, incidentally, your example of his salary being 900 times the average is inaccurate. He only takes a salary of $80k

Amazon CEO Jeff Bezos has made the same salary for decades, a little more than double the median U.S. employee's pay

His extravagant wealth is tied to his ownership of the company, not to a salary that the company pays him.
Stocks have become the key part of the compensation packages because by doing incredible stock buy backs you can give yourself a couple billion dollar bonus in value In a a year. See Bezos’ growth in value this is what $24-$40 billion in value due to stock increases. That’s how you keep your paid salary low while increasing your worth $24 billion or more in a quarter.

actually, the reason we cannot $25 per hour is because we have artificially kept salaries low in the US and this in turn has destroyed the middle class and the growth of America. Now, to do it fast we would need a program similar to ppp designed to support small businesses by growing their payroll and the communities they exist in.
 

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Now, to do it fast we would need a program similar to ppp designed to support small businesses by growing their payroll and the communities they exist in.
I'm surprised you'd support the PPP at all - why not just throw the money directly to the workers?
 

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Discussion Starter #120 (Edited)
I'm surprised you'd support the PPP at all - why not just throw the money directly to the workers?
The PPP is a good approach keeps people employed and is focused on the right objectives. It just needs to be extended and focused on lifting up the average person.
 
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