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post #1 of 34 Old 02-10-2009, 12:20 PM Thread Starter
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Wisdom over the ages

Question: So what have we learned in two millennia?

"The budget should be balanced, the Treasury should be refilled, public debt should be reduced, the arrogance of officialdom should be tempered and controlled, and the assistance to foreign lands should be curtailed lest Rome become bankrupt. People must again learn to work, instead of living on public assistance."
-- Cicero - 55 BC

Answer: Evidently nothing.




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post #2 of 34 Old 02-10-2009, 12:32 PM
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What a belly laugh i got from that one!!! I didn't suspect anything until I read "Rome".

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post #3 of 34 Old 02-10-2009, 12:33 PM
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Amen

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post #4 of 34 Old 02-10-2009, 02:20 PM
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So true Mark so true, its a shame and to think history repeats itself so we should have seen it all coming, oh well.

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post #5 of 34 Old 02-11-2009, 06:27 AM
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When I was pursuing a career in economics, the professor indicated that there is a cyclical flow to the economy, with periods of growth interrupted by periods of a receeding economy. Sounds obvious...

But if Cicero saw this already over 2000 years ago - why haven't we learned? The last major recession was the early nineties, before that, the early eighties - how do we learn to moderate and sustain our economy after this latest (and possibly greatest) recessionary period? Maybe to complex a question to try to answer here, and even with a background in economics, there is no straightforward answer. But it seems to be high time that the ideals stated by Cicero be enforced, so we aren't left reeling the next time around.

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post #6 of 34 Old 02-11-2009, 07:30 AM Thread Starter
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When I was pursuing a career in economics, the professor indicated that there is a cyclical flow to the economy, with periods of growth interrupted by periods of a receeding economy. Sounds obvious...

But if Cicero saw this already over 2000 years ago - why haven't we learned? The last major recession was the early nineties, before that, the early eighties - how do we learn to moderate and sustain our economy after this latest (and possibly greatest) recessionary period? Maybe to complex a question to try to answer here, and even with a background in economics, there is no straightforward answer. But it seems to be high time that the ideals stated by Cicero be enforced, so we aren't left reeling the next time around.
Easy and simple Dave.

Politicians.




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post #7 of 34 Old 02-11-2009, 07:34 AM
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Easy and simple Dave.

Politicians.


So then the solution is easy and simple.

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post #8 of 34 Old 02-11-2009, 07:44 AM Thread Starter
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So then the solution is easy and simple.
Works for me.




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post #9 of 34 Old 02-11-2009, 08:42 AM
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post #10 of 34 Old 02-11-2009, 08:49 AM Thread Starter
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Where do I aim?
Fixed it for you Steve.




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post #11 of 34 Old 02-11-2009, 10:05 AM
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The last best guess I heard on this travesty of economics was 3 trillion. Okaaay! Now I'm beginning to get just a little bit concerned . . .

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post #12 of 34 Old 02-11-2009, 10:20 AM Thread Starter
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The last best guess I heard on this travesty of economics was 3 trillion. Okaaay! Now I'm beginning to get just a little bit concerned . . .
You missed the part where the states have to match funds. Possibly up to another $9.7 TRILLION.




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post #13 of 34 Old 02-11-2009, 10:42 AM
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You missed the part where the states have to match funds. Possibly up to another $9.7 TRILLION.

I guess every state has equal revenue from taxes

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post #14 of 34 Old 02-11-2009, 01:43 PM
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Fixed it for you Steve.
Nice Mark, real nice.
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post #15 of 34 Old 02-11-2009, 02:57 PM
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Fixed it for you Steve.
ROFL!! Glad I wasn't drinking anything when I read that!!

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post #16 of 34 Old 05-18-2019, 09:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Oomkes View Post
Question: So what have we learned in two millennia?

"The budget should be balanced, the Treasury should be refilled, public debt should be reduced, the arrogance of officialdom should be tempered and controlled, and the assistance to foreign lands should be curtailed lest Rome become bankrupt. People must again learn to work, instead of living on public assistance."
-- Cicero - 55 BC

Answer: Evidently nothing.
Cicero, while a great orator has no clue about Monetary Policy...
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post #17 of 34 Old 05-20-2019, 03:59 AM
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Cicero, while a great orator has no clue about Monetary Policy...
Did it take you 10 years and 3 months to conclude that?
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post #18 of 34 Old 05-20-2019, 08:22 AM
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Originally Posted by cwren2472 View Post
Did it take you 10 years and 3 months to conclude that?
Actually, it took this long for me to find it...
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post #19 of 34 Old 05-20-2019, 08:35 AM
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The answer is modern monetary theory... Governments have an advantage over every other economic entity if they print money... they can never run out of money and as long currency is linked resources and economic growth it will not see hyper inflation.
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post #20 of 34 Old 05-21-2019, 05:23 AM
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0% traction guy is so lonely he will dig up a 10yr old thread just to post a opinion.

thats hardly groundbreaking. Economists have always known that a government has three sources of money: it can tax it, borrow it, or print it.
if a government starts printing money to pay its bills, there is no guarantee the money will be worth anything. So far, all MMT amounts to is that you donít need to worry about turning into Greece if you can turn yourself into Zimbabwe, instead. This is why most economists have been wary of monetary financing of fiscal policy except in wartime.

Inflation is never and nowhere a monetary phenomenon......................

MV=Py

This says that the money supply in an economy (M) multiplied by the number of times it is spent in a given period (velocity of circulation, V) equals the price level (P) multiplied by output (y). Again, this is a truism. It simply says that nominal spending (or aggregate demand, MV) equals nominal income (Py). As all spending is someone elseís income, this is true by definition.

It isnít very modern; cranks throughout history have been saying that we would be rich if only we had more of the medium of exchange. It isnít monetary policy so much as a way of escaping the inevitabilities of fiscal policy. And its theoretical basis is a banal truism. It is simply the latest in a long line of claims to have found a Magic Money Tree for government.


Wish I could stay and debate this but I have to go pick some tasty asparagus !
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post #21 of 34 Old 05-21-2019, 05:41 AM
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Originally Posted by SnoFarmer View Post
0% traction guy is so lonely he will dig up a 10yr old thread just to post a opinion.

thats hardly groundbreaking. Economists have always known that a government has three sources of money: it can tax it, borrow it, or print it.
if a government starts printing money to pay its bills, there is no guarantee the money will be worth anything. So far, all MMT amounts to is that you donít need to worry about turning into Greece if you can turn yourself into Zimbabwe, instead. This is why most economists have been wary of monetary financing of fiscal policy except in wartime.

Inflation is never and nowhere a monetary phenomenon......................

MV=Py

This says that the money supply in an economy (M) multiplied by the number of times it is spent in a given period (velocity of circulation, V) equals the price level (P) multiplied by output (y). Again, this is a truism. It simply says that nominal spending (or aggregate demand, MV) equals nominal income (Py). As all spending is someone elseís income, this is true by definition.

It isnít very modern; cranks throughout history have been saying that we would be rich if only we had more of the medium of exchange. It isnít monetary policy so much as a way of escaping the inevitabilities of fiscal policy. And its theoretical basis is a banal truism. It is simply the latest in a long line of claims to have found a Magic Money Tree for government.


Wish I could stay and debate this but I have to go pick some tasty asparagus !
You are correct that spending is directly tied to income. And the velocity of this spending is very dependent various factors. However, you clearly donít understand MMT...
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post #22 of 34 Old 05-21-2019, 05:49 AM
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You are correct that spending is directly tied to income. And the velocity of this spending is very dependent various factors. However, you clearly donít understand MMT...
you are a fool, that was C&P from a guy that is a authority on the subject....

I guess that makes you the guy who has "little" understanding of MMT
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post #23 of 34 Old 05-21-2019, 05:54 AM
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you are a fool, that was C&P from a guy that is a authority on the subject....

I guess that makes you the guy who has "little" understanding of MMT
I have a very good understanding of MMT... i wrote my senior honor thesis on how to use it...
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post #24 of 34 Old 05-21-2019, 06:00 AM
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I have a very good understanding of MMT... i wrote my senior honor thesis on how to use it...
so what happened big guy, as your not working in your field of study.

and obviously the guy who I copied that from is....

ive read a few thesis that were mostly fiction.
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post #25 of 34 Old 05-21-2019, 06:11 AM
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so what happened big guy, as your not working in your field of study.

and obviously the guy who I copied that from is....

ive read a few thesis that were mostly fiction.
My field of expertise is Philosophy of Mind... I run the family business.
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