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Old 03-24-2010, 03:59 PM
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Roofing questions

I had some ice and water damage over the winter on my front porch, mostly I believe to 2 different issues. First, I don't have very good ventilation in the attic, and there is no ice and water shield on the roof. The roof was done 10 years ago, 2 years before I bought the house. Insurance did make a payout, but not enough to hire someone to do the entire roof, which is 28 square. I have an estimate for $9800 to do the entire roof, which at this point, is out of my budget, and the insurance company gave me a check for $4k.

Still planning on adding on to my garage, so I thought why not just do the entire roof at the same time. I would not be happy with just redoing the front porch area, no way that I am going to get 10 year old shingles to match with new ones.

The plan is to do the roof myself, along with some friends that are helping with the garage addition. There is only 1 layer of shingles down now, and those will be taken off, and new ice and water shield will be put down, since it is code here also.

Also forgot to mention, that with proper ventilation, I would hope to take care of most of the ice issue. I just put down more blow-in insulation in the attic last fall, have approximately 18 inches of insulation at this time.

What should I look for in the shingles, 20 year, 30 year, lifetime, what wind rating would be best. Do I plan on being in the house for the rest of my life, most likely not, but at least for another 2-5 years.

With the garage addition, I will be looking at 34 square all together, and have seen prices range on shingles from $60 to over $200 a square. Any insight to all of this will be greatly appreciated.

Thanks.
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Old 03-25-2010, 03:50 AM
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I/W barrier to extend 3' past exterior wall. So if you have 2' overhang you'll need 2 rows of I/W barrier....that's a code that's pretty universal.

If the porch roof, or any roof for that matter is 3/12 or LESS pitch, you cannot use a standard shingle as it "can" allow water to migrate back under it so they recommend a membrane type roof is these low pitch applications.

35yr shingles are the lowest warranty type we'll use, but by and large all shingles are junk anymore. More fiberglass than asphalt, many delaminate from sitting, all are thin until you get into the 40/50yr shingle rnge and then shingles are not only exceptionally expensive, installtion sucks since you have to use a saw to cut them...blades are impractical due to thickness of them. We're finding no matter who manufacturers them, there does'nt seem to be any uniformity about them anymore, some shingles are produced with a 5" exposure and out of the same bundle you'll have some with a 5.5" exposure. Same on lengths, some ends are cut square, other's are taper cut....

Just is'nt a really good low to mid range shingle these days, all junk IMO no matter who makes them. Tamko, GAF, Ownes Corning, Elk, Atlas, etc....sad actually
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Old 03-25-2010, 06:10 AM
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how well do metal roofs compare to shingles?
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Old 03-25-2010, 07:15 AM
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John My recomendation is a 25 -30 year Certainteed dimentional in your choice of color. And a 3/12 is the lowest slope roof that can be shingaled but it has to be membraned completly. If you have more questions feel free to call.
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Old 03-25-2010, 09:14 AM
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Originally Posted by IHI View Post
I/W barrier to extend 3' past exterior wall. So if you have 2' overhang you'll need 2 rows of I/W barrier....that's a code that's pretty universal.

If the porch roof, or any roof for that matter is 3/12 or LESS pitch, you cannot use a standard shingle as it "can" allow water to migrate back under it so they recommend a membrane type roof is these low pitch applications.

35yr shingles are the lowest warranty type we'll use, but by and large all shingles are junk anymore. More fiberglass than asphalt, many delaminate from sitting, all are thin until you get into the 40/50yr shingle rnge and then shingles are not only exceptionally expensive, installtion sucks since you have to use a saw to cut them...blades are impractical due to thickness of them. We're finding no matter who manufacturers them, there does'nt seem to be any uniformity about them anymore, some shingles are produced with a 5" exposure and out of the same bundle you'll have some with a 5.5" exposure. Same on lengths, some ends are cut square, other's are taper cut....

Just is'nt a really good low to mid range shingle these days, all junk IMO no matter who makes them. Tamko, GAF, Ownes Corning, Elk, Atlas, etc....sad actually
You are using some lousy shingles, and the wrong tools to handle them.


I have had excellent results with Certainteed shingles. The 30 year LandMark/Woodscape shingles are very good quality, the 50 year Premiums are excellent. They look better to due to the thicker shingle and better color selection/definition. IKO shingles are lousy in my experience.

You can purchase a "Shingle Shear" for about $300. It's basically a big paper cutter. It's the best way to cut the heavier architectural style shingles.

Maybe post a couple pics of your roof, we can help you with the problem areas. If you have some low slope areas, CertainTeed makes some low pitch roofing that is extremely good quality, and very easy to install. They make matching colors to go with the mainline roofing shingles.

PM me if you like
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Old 03-25-2010, 09:15 AM
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how well do metal roofs compare to shingles?
Standing seam is OK, and very expensive. Screw down is crap, stay away.

They all look terrible IMO
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Old 03-25-2010, 10:45 AM
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Originally Posted by 2COR517 View Post
You are using some lousy shingles, and the wrong tools to handle them.


I have had excellent results with Certainteed shingles. The 30 year LandMark/Woodscape shingles are very good quality, the 50 year Premiums are excellent. They look better to due to the thicker shingle and better color selection/definition. IKO shingles are lousy in my experience.
I used certainteed on my own house and they were okay, but that was prior to getting caught in all the BS with the class action lawsuit with all their shingles delaminating like crazy, and ever since then there is not a single roofing company in town that will touch them with a 10' pole.


You can purchase a "Shingle Shear" for about $300. It's basically a big paper cutter. It's the best way to cut the heavier architectural style shingles.
I have 2 shingle shark and the guys hate them, takes too long to run each shingle through...one of those tools that's a "good idea" but is'nt practical for earning a living when the same results can easily be achieved with a string line and a hook blade. I personally like using them for cutting the starter courses since I lay out a jig/story board and can just lop lop lop away, but for cutting the end shingles it's a PITA for the guys to get up from where they're at, walk over to the shark, cut it, walk back, kneel back down and install.

Maybe post a couple pics of your roof, we can help you with the problem areas. If you have some low slope areas, CertainTeed makes some low pitch roofing that is extremely good quality, and very easy to install. They make matching colors to go with the mainline roofing shingles.

PM me if you like

As for tin roofs (aka steel roofs) the only ones I'd use are Decra if yoru still wanting the "typical shingle look" or standing seam. Keep the typical pole barn junk on the pole barns, they look terrible on a residential application, very hack/cheap.
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Old 03-25-2010, 12:15 PM
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This is the shear. Take it with you as you fill in the gables or valley. Lays on the roof up to about a 7 pitch, has a hook for steeper pitches. I really like it, but I'm used to it too.

http://www.howardtools.com/index.html

Just seeing now you can get it for $130 bucks, add a sheet of plywood. Totally worth it IMO.

IKO is the primary brand around here. Probably 95%. They have some serious color problems in Green, and finish/appearance problems in all colors. Sizing is inconsistent, ends are not square, etc. I've put them down a few times, and hate them. They're the brand though, because IKO crams them down the throat of the two big lumber chains in the area. The smaller ones carry them because that's what guys are used to. And they were the last ones to make a full organic shingle, which a lot of the old timers thought (and still think) were the way to go. I have first hand experience with IKO glass/organic on the same roof. Basically the house was all shingled in glass, homeowner decided to add a couple dog house dormers which were shingled in organic. The organics were falling out of the valleys, the glass had life left. But they were beat from the sun. 16 years old.

I've had fantastic success with CT. Shingles I put down six years ago look just like new. Product support has been great too. Free marketing tools, education materials.

If you go an hour south of me, CT is 80% of the market.
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Old 03-25-2010, 12:37 PM
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THESE are the cutters i bought and they've sat since the first job yrs ago, far too time consuming, bulky, and just dont make any sense when you have guys used to doing it with utility knives and chaulk lines...trying to get them to change over to a method that is much slower since time is money. Hence them collecting dust. I thought they'd work more effeicently than they did, but they ended up just being one more thing to stop work to use, one more thing to haul up/down the ladder, one more thing to move around on the roof....PITA and probably why there's no real following/no group of users other than tool whoring DIY'ers I always TRY to give new tools/concepts the benefit of the doubt because once in awhile we'll stumble onto something that revolutionizes how we do work and increases speed and long term stability....the shingle shear is'nt one of them unfortunately LOL!! Even bought the guys roofing tape measures that were "pre marked" with nothing BUT shingle line layouts...no numbers, just symbols for 3 tab, metric shingles, domestic shingles..that way guys could run up the rakes, make the marks, chaulk line the reference lines and go to town so everything was string straight. Nother gimic LOL!!

My roof still looks fine after 9 yrs using the landmarks, but I look out my front window sitting in my recliner at my neighbors 30yr certainteed 3 tabs that are only 7yrs old and is is terrible shape, all delaminating/curling. just one of those things, folks yrs ago thought Certainteed was a safe brand so that went on ALOT of roofs, they went bad, people got screwed over and it's left it's mark on the industry. I dont go and sell roofs outright, I hate roofing with a passion to be honest, but when we're doing new builds I keep it in house and I cant afford to take that chance with them, they've already proven themselves problematic and I have better things to do than argue with customers saying I owe them a new roof, I owe them this/that, and the next thing because the manufacturer wont stand behind their product with a warranty that is worth anything to actually "make it right"
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Old 03-25-2010, 12:38 PM
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The only shingles ive seen delamination problems on so far are those that were improperly installed

But Im also a certanteed master installer so I do it like they want and dont have any problems thats why they take the time to put directions on those things
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Old 03-25-2010, 01:35 PM
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Neighbors roof across the street, Certainteed shingles.





Do a quick google search on certainteeds class action lawsuit and do some reading on them, they screwed over millions of homeowners nationwide with junk product that self destructed. Plenty of cases proven in court where even Certainteed had their "investigators" on site looking for every reason to point the blame elsewhere, as with proper intake/exhaust of attic space, insulating methods of particular ceilings, etc....fingers kept pointing back at them until they admitted a problem, and then offered a few hundred to homeowners to fix their roofs LMFAO!!!

As for the "certified", well, as we all know to get certified it's a matter of taking a test and boom, all of a sudden you have a piece of paper allowing you to claim a leg up and with most roofing cert's it allows the installer to offer a longer warranty period based on brand they're installing. It's nothing more than a marketing gimic, pure and simple. Anybody that thinks it's anything but is foolish for the simple fact anybody can get it that is willing to put in the time. Years ago i entertained getting certified for various products we use consistency, but just as many prior "good idea's" I had over the yrs to use for marketing, it made no sense to waste my time and money doing so. We already stand behind the product labor wise, we dont mass market, we're simply word of mouth so my warranty is "as long as you own your home" you call if you have a question or problem. Same with product, we use what we use because IF and WHEN there is a problem, I make a call to a rep and they set the wheels in motion to remedy the situation.

A professional install is a professional install...that piece of paper does'nt mean a fricken thing since if a claim is made, the manufacturer sends a rep out to review how product was installed anyhow before determining if they have any reason to stand behind their problem or call for a "installed wrong" card. To date, all of the problems we've had with other certainteed products, they've taken care of them....mainly in the siding side of things with bad batches or mixed batches and colors being off/sheen being different.

not taking anything away from you personally for going taking the time to get cert., but it does'nt hold much water for me since each manufacturer has destructions on how they want their product installed and stipulations behind install....you vary from it, you bought it...it's your baby at that point in time. So proper install is a proper install, no if, and's, or but's about it.
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Old 03-25-2010, 05:04 PM
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IHI,

Who stands your workmanship warranty when you cease to exist?

Not trying to be a smart aleck, but sooner or later we all stop breathing . . . .


Actually, code for I&W is 2' to the inside of the exterior wall (Michigan Residential Code R905.8.3.1) Based on the Int. Residential Code.

Andy
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Old 03-25-2010, 05:56 PM
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I gotta chime in on this..... Personally I won't get on a roof without my shingle shear. Period. I bought my first one back in 03, and frankly if they're not saving you time, you're not doing something right. It works best for us on rakes if I have one dedicated "Cut" guy. We also cut "books" of starters, and save the cutoffs for "finishers". This increases our production, and also minimizes waste. I've been completely satisfied with tihs method from both a quality and production standpoint. Nice straight lines up the rake, around chimneys, etc. Its very difficult IMO to cut a nice clean line with a hook knife, especially if the shingles aren't nice and warm and you're trying to cut through the double-laminated portion of an architectural shingle. I'd be pi$$ed if I saw my guys NOT using it. But it's all in what you're familiar with.

The Certainteed MSA thing doesn't carry much weight for me. As someone said, anyone can get it with a little work. I was a 17-year old high school kid in 1997 with minimal roofing experience, completed the MSA course while in Vo-Tech, and Presto! I'm a roofer. I don't think so.

I haven't seen any of the Certainteed problems around here. That's not to say they don't exist, just haven't seen them. I am a big fan of the GAF Timberline shingles. We've installed literally 1,500 square of the 30 year architecturals in the last 5-6 years and have had ZERO problems with them. I like their overall appearance, weight, durability, their accessories, and asphalt content seems good. This is one thing I hate about Owens Corning. After installing them for a day you feel like you've been insulating. Hands are all tore up, they're terrible. Plus it seems there isn't much color on them, up close you can see right through the color to the black matting. They just seem thin and cheap to me. I would stick with the 30 year GAF's in a hearbeat. 40 year MAX. Reasoning for me is that 50-year and "lifetime" shingles haven't been out all that long, and there's no proof they'll last much longer than the 30's, or at least long enough to warrant their substantial extra cost. Plus, as someone noted in the Certianteed case, shingle companies will try and find ANY reason to get out of a warranty. You think 20-25-30 years into your 50 year warranty they're gonna really stand behind that product??? Also, shingles are kinda like carpet and other decorative items in a way. 20-25 years go by, and IF you're still living there you'd probably be ready to look at something different anyway. Plus the OP said he's not gonna stay there more than 2-5 yrs most likely, so IMO a 5 year old 30 yr shingle is still pretty "new" in terms of resale. No way would I invest in more expensive shingles if I were moving in 2-5 yrs.

I do like the appearance and functionality of the standing seam metal roofing on SIMPLE roofs. However, I am not a big fan of the flashing details when you start getting into more complicated areas. THey seem to rely to heavily on mastic, caulking, etc. IMO. I wouldn't call myself an expert on metal roofs though, as I've only done a handful. Around here, cost for mateirals only is about 3x more than 30 yr shingles.

Good luck, hope this info helps.
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Old 03-25-2010, 05:57 PM
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IHI,

Who stands your workmanship warranty when you cease to exist?

Not trying to be a smart aleck, but sooner or later we all stop breathing . . . .


Actually, code for I&W is 2' to the inside of the exterior wall (Michigan Residential Code R905.8.3.1) Based on the Int. Residential Code.

Andy
It's the same code here for I/W. Not sure how come it wasn't done when the roof was redone 10 years ago, from what I have gathered from local contractors, it was code back then too. Also found out that it was most likely a certain contractor that did the roof back then, that was know to cut every corner that he could. He has since been in jail numerous times, for defrauding and stealing large sums of money from clients.
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Old 03-26-2010, 03:49 AM
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marcs,

I've been working with homeowners on GAF warranty claims. About 10 years ago or so they had a batch of Timberline 30's that had a seal strip issue. It would appear that the strip was over aggressive, and that once sealed, there was no give in the seal that allowed for expansion/contraction. The result was a vertical split in the shingle. Not sure how large the problem was. But then, what with the turn over on property ownership and other issues, not all of them will be discovered.

I have had a really good experience with Certainteed's MSA program. In the customer's eyes, it does raise the level of professionalism. I won't argue with how easy it has been in the past to get into the program. However, the bar has been raised quite a bit recently.

I've also had good response from Certainteed on warranty claims. Most of the claims center around the organic based shingles. I continue to be impressed with their product and contractor support programs.
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