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Old 04-04-2008, 12:04 AM
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Bobcat tipping loads

Question for guys familiar with equipment. Short story... last fall, I borrowed my old man's bobcat 853 to unload pallets of salt off a semi and load them in my garage. The 853 is a pretty good size machine and seems pretty heavy. The bobcat had no problem lifting the pallet, but it immediately tipped forward and we couldn't get the pallets off the semi. Ended up tossing 11 bags off each pallet before we could get them off...

Anyway, I found a new supplier, and ran for a pallet the other day, after hours. They have a T190 that they use for various landscape work and moving pallets of salt. Owner basically had the office chick meet me there and told me to just load myself with the bobcat. No problem, but can the machine lift a full pallet? He says no problem, they do it all the time. So, I pick up a 2520lb pallet with it no problem, lift it 5' and set it in the back of my truck, never once felt tippy. I was surprised at how well it handled it. I looked at the specs online, and the 853 has a capacity of 1700lbs, and the T190 has a capacity of 1900lbs. Also, the T190 didn't have any extra weights hanging off the back... So, what's the big difference between these two that allows the 190 to handle the full pallet so well yet the 853 is just downright scary tippy? I mean, even driving forward up a small grade with nothing on the front, the thing always feels like you're on the verge of going over backward. Has bobcat made that many advancements over the years in creating a less tippy machine that dances better? Reason I'm asking is because I've been planning to purchase a forklift, but would rather have a small to midsize machine that I can put to work for more than just moving my junk around... And the T190 seems like a good compromise and seems to handle the weight I'd need it to just fine... Before this, I hadn't considered a skidder due to cost and the fact that the 853 and the case 75xt I've run couldn't handle full pallets for crap...
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Old 04-04-2008, 03:45 AM
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Are you sure the pallets were both the same weight? The bags were of the same weight and count?

If so, there's some other factors at work. I don't no the differences between the machines you've mentioned specifically, but there are some general issues that will apply.

The skid steer ratings are calculated at 1/2 the weight it takes to actually tip the machine. I don't know the specs of the test they do, but at some point they determine the weight that tips the machine and divide by 1/2. So a machine that tips at 4000lbs is rated as a 2000lbs machine. This is why they will often carry more than they are rated for.

The other variable is the lift linkage. there are both vertical lift skids and radial lift. On a vertical lift, the bucket remains the same distance from the machine through the whole lift cycle. This is accomplished with multiple linkage points, I believe 5 per side. With this style machine, if you can pick a load, you can raise it to full height without tipping on level ground.

On a radial lift machine, the bucket starts in close to the machine, then extends away from it and then returns back closer as it reaches the end of the cycle. This style boom has 3 linkage points on each side of the boom. As you raise the boom, the load extends out further from the machine increasing the leverage against the machine. As this happens, the load can tip the machine or make it more unstable as it goes through the center of the lift arc.
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Old 04-04-2008, 05:11 AM
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Like Steve said, the loader geometry can make all the difference.

I don't know why you had problems with a 75XT. Ours has had no problems with unloading semis - I had 3 loads of 80lb salt bags delivered here this winter, at 24 skids per load. 30 bags per skid - and have never encountered a problem loading/unloading. After unloading, the machine can easily stack the skids three pallets high. In fact, after testing a number of machines, we decided on the 75XT for it's capability versus weight on a rubber tired machine. I do know that ours has the cast counterwieght - so that might be the little extra it needed. But as for the performance of the machine - it's been everything we needed and more - power, capability, reliability, etc.

I have also had alot of time on an 853 - never particularily liked the machine, as it seemed to lack power for the size. It also had problems handling heavier loads. But again, there may have been differences with this particular machine. It got traded in on a Cat - can't remember the model #, but the Cat was a pleasure to operate.
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Old 04-04-2008, 08:03 AM
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I dont know much about the 853,but my uncle and cousin have a T190 and its a strong machine.I know it lifts way more than 1900 lbs.Maybe the T190 is a bit underated or conservatively rated.
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Old 04-04-2008, 08:26 AM
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Usually our track machines can lift more safely than our wheeled skid loaders
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Old 04-04-2008, 08:52 AM
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Abes has it right. Anyone that has operated a wheeled skidder and a tracked one will tell you that the tracked machine is a lot more stable. Mind you I would never use a tracked machine for plowing.
Go to a verticle lift machine rather than a radious lift machine for stability.

P.S. I got a verticle lift machine for sale if you are interested.
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Old 04-04-2008, 09:35 AM
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Brendan,

I know you mentioned this salt ended up clumping, do you think those 50 lb bags actually weighed a bit more, being saturated with water?

Maybe the 853 would lift a dry pallet?

Just a thought.

I know the New Holland I used a few years ago was marginal at a full pallet. I dont recall the model.
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Old 04-04-2008, 11:46 AM
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Thanks for the responses guys! Steve, the pallets I was unloading last fall with the 853 were 2450lbs plus the pallet (49 50lb bags). The pallet I handled with the T190 was 2520 plus pallet (63 40lb bags), so it was haeavier. John, there was some moisture in the bags last fall, but I dont think there was that much. Also, the bobcat had a very hard time lifting the 250 gallon mag tanks, even after draining 50 gals out, without tipping... I stared at some pics of both machines and the only thing I can come up with is that the wheelbase on the 853 appears to be shorter by about a foot, simply because the front roller for the track is all the way at the front of the machine, which is probably why the balance is so much better. The 853's front "pivot point" for tipping is further back on the machine due to having tires versus tracks... I've been thinking about buying a machine for material handling, winter use (sidewalks and some lot plowing), snowblowing, and possible expansion into excavating, driveway tearouts, final grades, and maybe even some hardscapes... Seems the T190 is a much more well balanced machine and could do the work without having to go any bigger in machine size. Only downside I can see would be traction issues in the snow...
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Old 04-04-2008, 02:15 PM
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In addition to the vertical lift vs radius lift, might have a little to do with the 853 weighing in at 6500# and the 190 coming in at a little over 7600#.

I love my 190, as you said, very versatile, could use more HP, but the G-Series has 5 more horses to play with. Haven't run one yet, but they said it was noticeable.

And with regards to capacities, IMO they are all slightly conservative, at least in the Bobcat line. I can carry a full pallet of block or sod with my 190. And my Toolcat is rated at 1500# and will lift a pallet of salt or fertilizer without breaking a sweat. Just needs a little ballast if you're going to do that.

PS While my 190 is very versatile, it is not a good idea to go near water of any significant depth. Trust me.
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Old 04-07-2008, 05:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Oomkes View Post
In addition to the vertical lift vs radius lift, might have a little to do with the 853 weighing in at 6500# and the 190 coming in at a little over 7600#.

I love my 190, as you said, very versatile, could use more HP, but the G-Series has 5 more horses to play with. Haven't run one yet, but they said it was noticeable.

And with regards to capacities, IMO they are all slightly conservative, at least in the Bobcat line. I can carry a full pallet of block or sod with my 190. And my Toolcat is rated at 1500# and will lift a pallet of salt or fertilizer without breaking a sweat. Just needs a little ballast if you're going to do that.

PS While my 190 is very versatile, it is not a good idea to go near water of any significant depth. Trust me.


Do all of these capacities apply to "aqua-scaping" too???


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Old 04-13-2008, 07:34 PM
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Indusrty standard on ROC ( rated operarting capacity) , of the "players" in the market ( bobcat , case , deere , NH , cat) is :

Wheeled machine :

ROC is 50% of the tip load. Tip load is determined at the factory by rasing the bucket to full height and adding weight until machine starts to tip. That number is then cut in 1/2. A bobcat S150 has a ROC of 1500lbs , but will handle 3000lbs in the bucket. Keep in mind that is on a flat surface and not moving.

Tip load on a CTL ( compact track loader) is figured the same way , but the ROC is based on approx 1/3 ( 35%) of the tip load.

Bobcat S185 ( 1850 ROC ) and a Bobcat T190 (1900 ROC) have the same frame going down the assy line. Only differnece is the drive system. The T190 will outlift the S185 day in and day out.

It takes more weight in the bucket to tip the T190 vs the S185 .


Clear as mud???


Let me see if i can find some fancy engineer stuff to explain this better .


stay tuned .......
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Old 02-08-2011, 11:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrBobcat View Post
Indusrty standard on ROC ( rated operarting capacity) , of the "players" in the market ( bobcat , case , deere , NH , cat) is :

Wheeled machine :

ROC is 50% of the tip load. Tip load is determined at the factory by rasing the bucket to full height and adding weight until machine starts to tip. That number is then cut in 1/2. A bobcat S150 has a ROC of 1500lbs , but will handle 3000lbs in the bucket. Keep in mind that is on a flat surface and not moving.

Tip load on a CTL ( compact track loader) is figured the same way , but the ROC is based on approx 1/3 ( 35%) of the tip load.

Bobcat S185 ( 1850 ROC ) and a Bobcat T190 (1900 ROC) have the same frame going down the assy line. Only differnece is the drive system. The T190 will outlift the S185 day in and day out.

It takes more weight in the bucket to tip the T190 vs the S185 .


Clear as mud???


Let me see if i can find some fancy engineer stuff to explain this better .


stay tuned .......

I'm tuned in!

















(yes I know its old thread, but interesting none the less)
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Old 02-08-2011, 04:46 PM
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track machines are always way more stable than wheel machines.... and i use a case ct450 for snowplwing all the time and it works great never had any issues
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Old 02-09-2011, 07:44 AM
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Originally Posted by wolcottseptic View Post
track machines are always way more stable than wheel machines.... and i use a case ct450 for snowplwing all the time and it works great never had any issues
Nice choice - our works well too.
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Old 02-09-2011, 08:57 AM
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I know Mark is forever razzed about water is there a thread that would fill me in on the misfortune?Sounds like a good one.
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Old 02-09-2011, 09:33 PM
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Originally Posted by jmac5058 View Post
I know Mark is forever razzed about water is there a thread that would fill me in on the misfortune?Sounds like a good one.
He just learned the hard way once that they don't float.
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Old 02-10-2011, 04:45 AM
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Originally Posted by jmac5058 View Post
I know Mark is forever razzed about water is there a thread that would fill me in on the misfortune?Sounds like a good one.
No...........
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Old 02-10-2011, 08:44 AM
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Ohh but there is
http://www.letstalksnow.com/forums/s...ht=bobcat+pond
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Old 02-10-2011, 09:24 PM
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LOL !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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